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Gonna get downvoted but fuck this.
The IDF is terrible, the Israeli government is terrible, it is genocidal and there is no excuse for that.
Yet, the IDF is mandatory for all 18yo in Israel, meaning that you could be completely against the IDF and the government, and still be in the IDF.
Imagine being an 18yo who sees the genocide, understands the that Israel is in the wrong, and is now forced to join the army that is in the process of a genocide, and immediately receiving a gun. Fucked up situation that might even lead someone to suicide, especially if maybe you are already in a dark place.
My point is that there are IDF soldiers that are absolutely genocidal, the IDF as an army is horrific, but because of mandatory conscription you can’t treat it the same as a voluntary army where people choose to be there (kinda, poverty and propaganda can often make it more complex)
Just as I wouldn’t celebrate the suicide of a Russian just because of what Russia is doing, I wouldn’t celebrate the suicide of an Israeli just because they were forced to join the IDF.
I think that these mindless celebrations of death jist fuel the cycle of hatred. If you support a genocide I have no compassion for you, but a forced conscription is not a choice.
Or instead of joining the IDF, you get the jail time of a few months.
But I guess they’re just following orders, so they’re actually absolved of the rape and genocide.
It’s not just jail though. Like any society, their are expectations that come with being a participant in it. Shame, family and pressure make that solution not an easy choice. I get what you are saying, and it’s easy to say that from the outside. History tells us that much baggage comes with going against the norm. Power to you,just realize it has impacts beyond just ‘your’ life. Not saying that is a good thing, just that it is a thing.
Sure, a few months in jail seems like an option, But there are 2 important factors here:
- Wether they are going to be combatants or not
- The fact that these are young adults / teens in a very normalized situation.
If you are 18yo and fresh out of school, understand that the IDF is in the wrong and condemn it but are now facing the choice between doing what society expects of you and going for 2-3 years of office work at the IDF or go against the law, go to jail for an unknown amount of months and possibly face social consequences, you might choose the office work. It does not obsolve you from all faults, but it does not make you genocidal or a rapist.
This approach of grouping everyone together is just adding more fuel to the fire. Everyone sticks their head in the sand and says “This is the problem, there is no nuance!” And guess what? Sometimes you will be more right and sometimes you will be more wrong, but you will very very rarely be correct.
There is no innocent IDF member, even if they were brainwashed into serving. Just following orders isn’t an excuse, we learned that via the Nuremberg trials.
I feel no sympathy for an IDF member, as I do for the American soldiers in Vietnam. Drafting doesn’t absolve you of war crimes, even if you feel guilty of it. People died, and it’s their fault.
Thats not a good example because in Nuremberg trials they specifically trialed generals and political leaders, which held positions that were directly related to the crimes, I don’t think generals in the IDF are remotely close to innocent.
But by putting a general who planned and executed war crimes and an office worker that maybe was responsible for office supplies in the same category, you are ignoring the reality of the situation and you are harming the severe and important definition of war crimes.
Your blind categorisation is harming your cause, which I assume is justice and protection of human rights and life.
Oh my bad, I’ll make sure that the people who moved papers covering up war crimes just didn’t follow orders before they go to trial.
Your point misses that it is not mandatory and they could instead go to gaol for short period of time rather than commit genocide and murder babies.
Your point is bad and your should feel bad for running defense and trying to paint them as innocent and/or victims.
Firstly I couldn’t find anything about “gaol” so I don’t know what you mean…
Secondly, armies are mostly non-combatant soldiers, which can range from working on weapons to office workers. As fucked up as the IDF is, if you are forced to join it and become an office worker, you might not be free of fault, but you are far from committing a genocide or murdering babies.
You saw a word you didn’t know and you didn’t try a dictionary or search engine?
I did search for it, I guess that I over did the search terms and should have just searched the word itself. Thanks! Word of the day I guess!
If my approach to understanding was so flawed as to fail at looking up a word I would be deeply concerned about the quality of my thinking.
Ignore all the arguments I made and just focus on a single unrelated mistake?
mate, you can’t even figure out what a word means. Everything you believe is suspect if your approach is that sloppy.
Fix your approach to learning, then form opinions.
I disagree, they should be doing murder suicides with their commanding officers.
Yeah, death to all the 18 year old conscripts who are literally forced to join the IDF to commit atrocities (forced conscription), while also being blasted pro-war propaganda by their national bourgeois.
Kill kill kill I love murder I love suicides I love dehumanizing I love proletariat blood flowing if they happen to be on the bad side.
Deserting and draft evasion are options. Not saying it’s easy as there are consequences but it’s the obvious moral choice.
Deserting and draft evasion are options for the privileged.
FTFY.
If you can’t get out of the country or otherwise disappear, you can just spend your time in prison rather than serving. That’s an option open to any Israeli.
you can just spend your time in prison rather than serving.
Still only an option for the privileged - any Israeli who does that had better come from a rich enough family to keep them safe in that jail. I remember what they did to conscientous objectors here in Apartheid-South Africa - not pretty. And Israel is probably far, far worse in that regard.
You first-worlders do not understand what being born into a militarised fascist state is all about.
Kill kill kill I love murder I love suicides I love dehumanizing I love proletariat blood flowing if they happen to be on the bad side.
Yeah that’s why I feel just horrible whenever working class Nazis get killed because working class people can do no wrong /s
You know people can refuse right? the state doesn’t torture their families or anything.
Yes, death to the IDF. Fuck every single one of them.
Wah wah wah I could have refused to commit war crimes but I did them anyway now I feel bad waaaaaah.
Unlimited suicides on the IDF.
If they refuse to serve, do they go to gaol or get executed?
Yes, they do prison time, but IIRC it’s only a few months.
‘Proletarian’ colonizers, benefiting from apartheid. Shut up
I have met people who left rather than join. I have seen posts from people saying ‘I was in prison because i refused to’. Those are people. Those people deserve out compassion, and support if they need it despite where they were born.
These mother fuckers? No. Sorry. You join, I will never be sad about you dying. I may find it funny.
proletariat
Lol these are fucking colonizers
kill kill kill I love murder I love suicides
Mods?
proletariat
Again, are you fuvking high? Do you know what that fucking word means? Colonizers do not create. They exploit.
the bad side
Hey, so, what makes them the bad side, do you think? Is it the genocide, the passion for rape, the laboratory of oppression, or the fact many of them practice circumcision and I’m just a combination antisemite foreskin enjoyer?
have you seen what they do to kids in elementary schools there? they literally brainwash them into being genocidal….
then if they refuse military service they go to prison.
suicide means they’ve been emotionally destroyed by what they’ve had to do… it makes sense, by the time it really sinks in they’ve already killed innocent people.
they’re all people.
it’s better than them killing more innocent people, but it’s nothing to revel in.
some of the soldiers are genocidal maniacs, but i don’t think they’re the ones offing themselves
i would much prefer people who did horrible things to change their ways, and work towards healing the world rather than kill themselves
And I’d like to live in a magical floating castle. At least a dead IDF today will save a life tomorrow.
Okay, but let’s at least try to remember that there is mandatory conscription and service in Israel and that there is probably a significant proportion of people who have no other choice but to serve in the IDF. I am in no way attempting to excuse genocidal and homicidal actions that anyone has taken, but let’s at least attempt to understand the complexity of the issue instead of trying to reduce things to an unnaturally binary state.
Life is infinitely complex. Let’s use the wonderful tools of understanding that complex evolutionary pathways have afforded us to try to scratch the surface of that infinity. Empathy is strength; don’t let right-wing propaganda teach you that it is a weakness.
there is probably a significant proportion of people who have no other choice but to serve in the IDF
fuck that genocide-enabling noise. if your choices are to go to prison or take part in mass murder of innocents, then you don’t get a pass for opting to kill people to save yourself some discomfort.
I don’t disagree with you, but let’s try to at least understand the complexity of those decisions instead of viewing the world in black/white. That sort of thinking breeds fascism and authoritarianism.
TIL that saying people should go to jail instead of being Nazis makes me a Nazi.
I don’t disagree with you
Then don’t double down on genocide apologia. It’s really that fucking simple.
They literally have other choices than joining the IDF. That choice is gaol, instead they choose to commit genocide.
Fuck them all, zero sympathy for Nazis.
Exactly the excuse “oh I had to make that choice or else I would have suffered” is so lacking in solidarity that it’s infuriating.
This is how hierarchy maintains its power, by saying “hurt them or we will hurt you; do what we say or else”; making people believe it is acceptable to sacrifice the lives of others to remain safe under the current system. Their power is entirely predicated on people having that fear keeping them in line and obeying their orders.
We’ve seen now what happens in Israeli gaols - I can only imagine that they’d treat perceived “traitors” the same as Palestinians; perhaps worse.
They don’t deserve our sympathy, but they definitely deserve empathy. Choosing to turn off your empathy for groups of people is sociopathy and that’s a road I’m unwilling to go down.
Wonder what would have happened if Bob Vylan had chanted
“Suicide to the IDF” at Glastonbury instead
The correlation of combatant suicide is commonplace, but increased severely in periods of fascism and genocide. Most people aren’t sociopaths but can still be persuaded, pressured, and/or conditioned to do terrible things. I’m surprised it’s not higher.
And those committing suicide are those who see their / their sides wrongdoings and can’t live with them. This is not something to celebrate, these people are victims just as the people in the Gaza Strip.
Instead of killing themselves they should be fragging their fellow soldiers. But these cowards can’t even bring themselves to try and right their wrongs.
They’re not victims. They’re monsters who finally learned who they are but refuse to repent.
Instead of killing themselves they should be fragging their fellow soldiers.
Sooo… like that thing Aaron Bushnell didn’t do?
Aaron Bushnell didn’t just kill himself. He transformed his death into a protest. He didn’t just go quietly in the comfort of his own home. He picked one of the worst ways to go, in public, and made it known without a shadow of a doubt what he died for.
So yeah, Bushnell didn’t frag his peers, but he did at least do something positive with his suicide… unlike IDF soldiers. How many IDF soldiers have made their suicides a protest? Nah, when IDF soldiers kill themselves, it’s because killing Palestinians is “icky” and they can’t deal with it, not because they consider Palestinians worthy of being mourned.
So yeah, Bushnell didn’t frag his peers,
Bushnell was a cybersecurity spook for the US military - he could have done a lot more than just fragging his peers. Instead, he decided to be flashy.
Nah, when IDF soldiers kill themselves,
Are you normally this much of an expert on suicides committed by people half-way around the world? Reading through these comments I can pretty much see a pattern of first-world, liberal views being projected onto a society the commentors absolutely do not understand - and it’s annoying.
The suicide rates among IDF personal is - perhaps - a positive indicator of the pressure Israeli society is under. That is all it is - figuratively pissing on the graves is hollow edginess and nothing else.
Bushnell was a cybersecurity spook for the US military - he could have done a lot more than just fragging his peers.
Could he have? I’m not a cybersecurity expert, but my understanding is that these systems are designed to be robust to attacks by former personnel. But even if he could have done more…at least he did something. At least he tried. These IDF soldiers are doing absolutely nothing. They’re not even trying.
Reading through these comments I can pretty much see a pattern of first-world, liberal views being projected onto a society the commentors absolutely do not understand - and it’s annoying.
Okay but Pissrael is a first-world country that claims to hold liberal views. So even if I made such a projection of first-world, liberal values onto my analysis of IDF soldiers… I haven’t actually lost anything in the projection, because they are first-world liberals.
figuratively pissing on the graves is hollow edginess and nothing else.
Yeah which is why it’s surprising you’re figuratively pissing on Bushnell’s grave as a way of standing up for IDF soldiers…
these systems are designed to be robust to attacks by former personnel.
You’d think the intel on these systems would be valuable to those that are targeted by US imperialism - but I guess modern-day anarchists just don’t understand how the intelligence business works (which would actually explain a lot - including why Bushnell didn’t even see himself as becoming an intelligence asset to them)
But even if he could have done more…at least he did something.
Yes… he won the approval of all the armchair revolutionaries by setting himself on fire. But before that, he was just another “baby killer” to them, right? That’s quite a high bar to pass… I guess it’s no surprise that there is such a gigantic schism between the modern left (emphasis on the “modern” part) and military veterans.
I have to wonder why he felt the need to act so unilaterally? Do tell… what would you have advised him to do? To go ahead with it and set himself on fire for the cameras? You know… considering that this is the only way he could “atone” for his sins in your book - for whatever that is worth?
Since you and most people commenting here are such experts on why military vets off themselves it should be easy for you to say, right?
Yeah which is why it’s surprising you’re figuratively pissing on Bushnell’s
I’m not the one using Bushnell’s death as a cheap propaganda prop - and no, I don’t give a flying fuck if it was his intention to be used as such.
as a way of standing up for IDF soldiers…
You are free to peruse my comment history here on Lemmy, Youtube and Reddit for evidence of this accusation of yours if you so wish - otherwise, I’ll just be ignoring it, okay?
Do you consider yourself a hateful person?
I hate genociders, yes.
The disturbing part is that you apparently don’t.
Do you think more IDF soldiers putting guns in their mouths is going to make life better for the Palestinians?
Do you not?!?
yes. but first I hope they put the guns in their compatriots mouths. don’t just kill yourself, kill a few other soldiers while you’re at it. be productive.
100% yes. Every dead IDF around is one less to commit genocide.
Why do you support Nazis wellbeing?
Never said I support Nazis wellbeing.
You don’t seem worth talking toOh sorry, the words are so interchangeable.
Why do you support Zionists wellbeing?
One soldier less, 10 palestinians saved. You should think about the palestinians who saw their family members brutally murdered by those soldiers
fragging is cooler but i’ll take it
We need it to be even higher.
To be clear, if you personally commit a hate crime murder or rape:
Don’t kill yourself. You’re still human. Fix your shit, find out what made you suck, and do everything you can to compensate for how much you fucked up the world.
If you join the industrial hate crime rape extermination factory on purpose, when you could have run or spent a month in prison instead: You cannot be redeemed, you cannot be of value to humanity, and you can never be human again, if you ever were. The only thing left to you is to killeveryone who made you what you are, and then yourself. Please hurry; every moment you continue to exist defiles the world.
wow that sucks
spoiler
That it’s not more
