And those committing suicide are those who see their / their sides wrongdoings and can’t live with them. This is not something to celebrate, these people are victims just as the people in the Gaza Strip.
Instead of killing themselves they should be fragging their fellow soldiers. But these cowards can’t even bring themselves to try and right their wrongs.
They’re not victims. They’re monsters who finally learned who they are but refuse to repent.
Aaron Bushnell didn’t just kill himself. He transformed his death into a protest. He didn’t just go quietly in the comfort of his own home. He picked one of the worst ways to go, in public, and made it known without a shadow of a doubt what he died for.
So yeah, Bushnell didn’t frag his peers, but he did at least do something positive with his suicide… unlike IDF soldiers. How many IDF soldiers have made their suicides a protest? Nah, when IDF soldiers kill themselves, it’s because killing Palestinians is “icky” and they can’t deal with it, not because they consider Palestinians worthy of being mourned.
Bushnell was a cybersecurity spook for the US military - he could have done a lot more than just fragging his peers. Instead, he decided to be flashy.
Nah, when IDF soldiers kill themselves,
Are you normally this much of an expert on suicides committed by people half-way around the world? Reading through these comments I can pretty much see a pattern of first-world, liberal views being projected onto a society the commentors absolutely do not understand - and it’s annoying.
The suicide rates among IDF personal is - perhaps - a positive indicator of the pressure Israeli society is under. That is all it is - figuratively pissing on the graves is hollow edginess and nothing else.
Bushnell was a cybersecurity spook for the US military - he could have done a lot more than just fragging his peers.
Could he have? I’m not a cybersecurity expert, but my understanding is that these systems are designed to be robust to attacks by former personnel. But even if he could have done more…at least he did something. At least he tried. These IDF soldiers are doing absolutely nothing. They’re not even trying.
Reading through these comments I can pretty much see a pattern of first-world, liberal views being projected onto a society the commentors absolutely do not understand - and it’s annoying.
Okay but Pissrael is a first-world country that claims to hold liberal views. So even if I made such a projection of first-world, liberal values onto my analysis of IDF soldiers… I haven’t actually lost anything in the projection, because they are first-world liberals.
figuratively pissing on the graves is hollow edginess and nothing else.
Yeah which is why it’s surprising you’re figuratively pissing on Bushnell’s grave as a way of standing up for IDF soldiers…
these systems are designed to be robust to attacks by former personnel.
You’d think the intel on these systems would be valuable to those that are targeted by US imperialism - but I guess modern-day anarchists just don’t understand how the intelligence business works (which would actually explain a lot - including why Bushnell didn’t even see himself as becoming an intelligence asset to them)
But even if he could have done more…at least he did something.
Yes… he won the approval of all the armchair revolutionaries by setting himself on fire. But before that, he was just another “baby killer” to them, right? That’s quite a high bar to pass… I guess it’s no surprise that there is such a gigantic schism between the modern left (emphasis on the “modern” part) and military veterans.
I have to wonder why he felt the need to act so unilaterally? Do tell… what would you have advised him to do? To go ahead with it and set himself on fire for the cameras? You know… considering that this is the only way he could “atone” for his sins in your book - for whatever that is worth?
Since you and most people commenting here are such experts on why military vets off themselves it should be easy for you to say, right?
Yeah which is why it’s surprising you’re figuratively pissing on Bushnell’s
I’m not the one using Bushnell’s death as a cheap propaganda prop - and no, I don’t give a flying fuck if it was his intention to be used as such.
as a way of standing up for IDF soldiers…
You are free to peruse my comment history here on Lemmy, Youtube and Reddit for evidence of this accusation of yours if you so wish - otherwise, I’ll just be ignoring it, okay?
You are free to peruse my comment history here on Lemmy, Youtube and Reddit for evidence of this accusation of yours if you so wish - otherwise, I’ll just be ignoring it, okay?
Yeah I might have been speaking a little too strong because I’ve seen you posting around here and I know you’re no fan of the IDF. I’m not saying you have a pattern of defending the IDF, but I think you’re doing so in this case by mistake.
You’d think the intel on these systems would be valuable to those that are targeted by US imperialism.
Fair point. If he still had access to critical US intel, then leaking it would have been more productive.
I guess modern-day anarchists just don’t understand how the intelligence business works (which would actually explain a lot - including why Bushnell didn’t even see himself as becoming an intelligence asset to them)
Why on earth would the average person (including anarchists) understand how the intelligence business works? If you have any resources on that, I’d love to read them, because this would be very niche information that would be nice for the community to have.
I have to wonder why he felt the need to act so unilaterally? Do tell… what would you have advised him to do? To go ahead with it and set himself on fire for the cameras? You know… considering that this is the only way he could “atone” for his sins in your book - for whatever that is worth?
No I cannot stress enough that suicide is not the only way to atone for what veterans have done, or even a good way without extra information (i.e. making it a protest, taking soldiers with you, etc.). If I knew Aaron Bushnell, I would have selfishly told him to stay around and organize protests and direct actions, and see if he could use his cybersecurity expertise to secure anarchist communications and sabotage imperialist systems. I cannot stress enough that I do not believe that Aaron Bushnell’s suicide was “ideal”, and I selfishly would have loved to see him do more. But at least he tried, even the teeniest tiniest amount, in an imperfect and brash way, to fix what he broke. The people we’re talking about aren’t even trying to fix what they’ve broken; they’re just trying to escape it.
Yes… he won the approval of all the armchair revolutionaries by setting himself on fire. But before that, he was just another “baby killer” to them, right?
Correct. He was just another baby killer until he took action to fix what he broke. However, as I mentioned, he could have done lots of other stuff that didn’t require him to set himself on fire.
That’s quite a high bar to pass… I guess it’s no surprise that there is such a gigantic schism between the modern left (emphasis on the “modern” part) and military veterans.
Again I want to see veterans do actual productive activism, but if (and only if) they refuse to do that then I’ll happily watch their suicides 🍿
I’m not saying you have a pattern of defending the IDF, but I think you’re doing so in this case by mistake.
Exactly what “damage” will the IDF be suffering from the discourse on here that I am (supposedly) - and mistakenly - protecting it from?
Why on earth would the average person (including anarchists) understand how the intelligence business works?
Are you trying to say it’s not anarchists’ business to understand stuff like this?
That doesn’t it even get into the nuts and bolts of anything - but it suffices to demonstrate that an intelligence asset is worth far, far more than somebody performing hit-or-miss (but ultimately very temporary) stunts for the media cycle.
While we’re on the subject of the Makhnovists - you did know that the Makhnovists, after taking prisoners on the battlefield, went to great pains to separate conscripts from officers (before shooting the officers, of course)? What did they understand that you don’t?
Similarly, the NFL (Viet Cong) cadres that particpated in the Tet offensive did the exact same thing - they went to great pains to separate South Vietnamese army conscripts from officers in the towns and cities that they captured before “liquidating” the officers. What did they understand that you don’t?
and I selfishly would have loved to see him do more
Okay… maybe I’m not anarchistically “pure” enough to get this - but wtf would be “selfish” about this? What mental process is going on here?
Perhaps then, you won’t use it in a way that actually helps the imperialists.
but if (and only if) they refuse to do that
The people in question here aren’t around to refuse anything, are they?
Intelligence is not my expertise - it’s just an interest I gained because of my radicalisation (in my opinion, it should come with the territory). My actual expertise is in propaganda - I worked in it for many years.
Maybe you can tell me - if you were to use IDF suicide rates as a propaganda device to help drive a wedge, no matter how small, between IDF conscripts and the IDF officer class - do you think the discourse on this sub would be a hindrance or a help?
And those committing suicide are those who see their / their sides wrongdoings and can’t live with them. This is not something to celebrate, these people are victims just as the people in the Gaza Strip.
Instead of killing themselves they should be fragging their fellow soldiers. But these cowards can’t even bring themselves to try and right their wrongs.
They’re not victims. They’re monsters who finally learned who they are but refuse to repent.
Sooo… like that thing Aaron Bushnell didn’t do?
Aaron Bushnell didn’t just kill himself. He transformed his death into a protest. He didn’t just go quietly in the comfort of his own home. He picked one of the worst ways to go, in public, and made it known without a shadow of a doubt what he died for.
So yeah, Bushnell didn’t frag his peers, but he did at least do something positive with his suicide… unlike IDF soldiers. How many IDF soldiers have made their suicides a protest? Nah, when IDF soldiers kill themselves, it’s because killing Palestinians is “icky” and they can’t deal with it, not because they consider Palestinians worthy of being mourned.
Bushnell was a cybersecurity spook for the US military - he could have done a lot more than just fragging his peers. Instead, he decided to be flashy.
Are you normally this much of an expert on suicides committed by people half-way around the world? Reading through these comments I can pretty much see a pattern of first-world, liberal views being projected onto a society the commentors absolutely do not understand - and it’s annoying.
The suicide rates among IDF personal is - perhaps - a positive indicator of the pressure Israeli society is under. That is all it is - figuratively pissing on the graves is hollow edginess and nothing else.
Could he have? I’m not a cybersecurity expert, but my understanding is that these systems are designed to be robust to attacks by former personnel. But even if he could have done more…at least he did something. At least he tried. These IDF soldiers are doing absolutely nothing. They’re not even trying.
Okay but Pissrael is a first-world country that claims to hold liberal views. So even if I made such a projection of first-world, liberal values onto my analysis of IDF soldiers… I haven’t actually lost anything in the projection, because they are first-world liberals.
Yeah which is why it’s surprising you’re figuratively pissing on Bushnell’s grave as a way of standing up for IDF soldiers…
You’d think the intel on these systems would be valuable to those that are targeted by US imperialism - but I guess modern-day anarchists just don’t understand how the intelligence business works (which would actually explain a lot - including why Bushnell didn’t even see himself as becoming an intelligence asset to them)
Yes… he won the approval of all the armchair revolutionaries by setting himself on fire. But before that, he was just another “baby killer” to them, right? That’s quite a high bar to pass… I guess it’s no surprise that there is such a gigantic schism between the modern left (emphasis on the “modern” part) and military veterans.
I have to wonder why he felt the need to act so unilaterally? Do tell… what would you have advised him to do? To go ahead with it and set himself on fire for the cameras? You know… considering that this is the only way he could “atone” for his sins in your book - for whatever that is worth?
Since you and most people commenting here are such experts on why military vets off themselves it should be easy for you to say, right?
I’m not the one using Bushnell’s death as a cheap propaganda prop - and no, I don’t give a flying fuck if it was his intention to be used as such.
You are free to peruse my comment history here on Lemmy, Youtube and Reddit for evidence of this accusation of yours if you so wish - otherwise, I’ll just be ignoring it, okay?
Yeah I might have been speaking a little too strong because I’ve seen you posting around here and I know you’re no fan of the IDF. I’m not saying you have a pattern of defending the IDF, but I think you’re doing so in this case by mistake.
Fair point. If he still had access to critical US intel, then leaking it would have been more productive.
Why on earth would the average person (including anarchists) understand how the intelligence business works? If you have any resources on that, I’d love to read them, because this would be very niche information that would be nice for the community to have.
No I cannot stress enough that suicide is not the only way to atone for what veterans have done, or even a good way without extra information (i.e. making it a protest, taking soldiers with you, etc.). If I knew Aaron Bushnell, I would have selfishly told him to stay around and organize protests and direct actions, and see if he could use his cybersecurity expertise to secure anarchist communications and sabotage imperialist systems. I cannot stress enough that I do not believe that Aaron Bushnell’s suicide was “ideal”, and I selfishly would have loved to see him do more. But at least he tried, even the teeniest tiniest amount, in an imperfect and brash way, to fix what he broke. The people we’re talking about aren’t even trying to fix what they’ve broken; they’re just trying to escape it.
Correct. He was just another baby killer until he took action to fix what he broke. However, as I mentioned, he could have done lots of other stuff that didn’t require him to set himself on fire.
Again I want to see veterans do actual productive activism, but if (and only if) they refuse to do that then I’ll happily watch their suicides 🍿
Exactly what “damage” will the IDF be suffering from the discourse on here that I am (supposedly) - and mistakenly - protecting it from?
Are you trying to say it’s not anarchists’ business to understand stuff like this?
That doesn’t it even get into the nuts and bolts of anything - but it suffices to demonstrate that an intelligence asset is worth far, far more than somebody performing hit-or-miss (but ultimately very temporary) stunts for the media cycle.
While we’re on the subject of the Makhnovists - you did know that the Makhnovists, after taking prisoners on the battlefield, went to great pains to separate conscripts from officers (before shooting the officers, of course)? What did they understand that you don’t?
Similarly, the NFL (Viet Cong) cadres that particpated in the Tet offensive did the exact same thing - they went to great pains to separate South Vietnamese army conscripts from officers in the towns and cities that they captured before “liquidating” the officers. What did they understand that you don’t?
Okay… maybe I’m not anarchistically “pure” enough to get this - but wtf would be “selfish” about this? What mental process is going on here?
Perhaps you should learn where that term comes [from.][https://www.commondreams.org/views/2017/09/27/vietnam-war-protesters-have-nothing-apologize)
Perhaps then, you won’t use it in a way that actually helps the imperialists.
The people in question here aren’t around to refuse anything, are they?
Intelligence is not my expertise - it’s just an interest I gained because of my radicalisation (in my opinion, it should come with the territory). My actual expertise is in propaganda - I worked in it for many years.
Maybe you can tell me - if you were to use IDF suicide rates as a propaganda device to help drive a wedge, no matter how small, between IDF conscripts and the IDF officer class - do you think the discourse on this sub would be a hindrance or a help?