Again, if it’s your personal choice to not reproduce, that’s totally fine, and I won’t try to convince you otherwise.
As soon as you start telling other people though that producing offspring is inherently unethical and they’re a bad, selfish person for making that decision, you’re no different than the so-called “pro-life” groups, telling people that they’re morally flawed and the cause of all the problems in the world because you don’t agree with the choice they made about their reproductive system.
The options with antinatalism are:
No one reproduces and humans go extinct.
Someone has to make a decision regarding who can “ethically” reproduce to maintain some stable population level.
Option 1 is unacceptable to me because it means giving up, and at that point we might as well nuke everything to speed up the process of ending the suffering that is life. And if that’s the outlook you have, I genuinely feel bad for you.
Option 2 is unacceptable because — surprise surprise — that’s just eugenics dressed up as caring about the environment or something. And when you and your loved ones are part of groups that have historically been forcibly sterilized at best and sent to death camps at worst, you tend to have a negative opinion about any philosophy that ultimately labels some groups as unworthy of existing.
Option 1 is unacceptable to me because it means giving up, and at that point we might as well nuke everything to speed up the process of ending the suffering that is life. And if that’s the outlook you have, I genuinely feel bad for you.
The more extreme form of antinatalism, efilism, actually advocates for sterilizing the earth to prevent animal suffering as well.
Maybe I am, because no one’s given me a better explanation of it than “having kids bad”
Just pulling straight from Wikipedia, “Antinatalism or anti-natalism is the philosophical value judgment that procreation is unethical or unjustifiable” and I can’t see how that doesn’t lead to the conclusion that the planet is better off with humans being extinct.
Every argument I’ve heard boils down to “it’s easier just to die than to fix the problems that make life miserable, so we should all just die.” If you want to give up, go ahead. I personally don’t want to ever have kids, but I still want the world to be better for those who do.
They’re just plain arguing in bad faith. Persuasion, debate, and spreading ideology online are definitely an attempt to control others, just because it’s not physically coercive yet doesn’t make it exempt from any moral examination. They are seeking influence without accountability.
We are humanity, and we have barely begun to get silly. Arrogance is in our blood, ambition is our food and drink, and hubris is the air we breathe. We’ve been lurching from one disaster to the next since the ice age, clinging to this rock by our fingernails every time, and laughing the whole way.
We are not space elves. We are not wise. We do almost nothing but stumble, but we’re laughing the whole way. These antinatalists just don’t get the joke.
Option 1 being “unacceptable” to you is scary und giving me the ick. What happens in your world when people don’t want kids anymore? Forced breeding programs?
Sorry, not at all how I meant that. It’s being told not to have children that is scary and gives me the ick.
I don’t want the world to get to a point where no one wants to have kids anymore. I recognize that a lot of things happening now make it really hard to stay optimistic, but we — humanity — are the only ones who can do anything to change it for the better. And given the choice between “we might as well give up and just die out as soon as possible” and “we need to do everything we can to give the next generation the best chance of surviving and thriving we can”, I’ll always choose the latter
It’s going to be a bit difficult to keep ‘surviving and thriving’ without food or water.
But hey, 2030 is a few years off still, so how about an even closer apocalypse? Did you know there’s now a chance for a double blue ocean event in the next ten months?
How do you plan to fix this? You gonna throw babies at it? Or are you just going to do what you’ve been conditioned to and ignore all the disadvantaged people struggling and dying, till the apocalypse is at your door and your children are affected?
Before I became a mom, I could honestly give less of a shit if the world went to shit.
Now that I’m a mom, I will move heaven and earth to give my son a better life. My son is currently living the best life that all his ancestors could have ever dreamed of.
My family moved to one of the safest places in the world for climate change and nuclear war. We’re buying and building a fully off-grid home where my son will be able to grow up running in a forest for his backyard while still living a normal life, going to school, and stuff. We’re planning on starting a strawberry or blueberry farm co-op. I’m literally building the world and community that I want my son to live in brick by brick, person by person.
I hate politics but I’m organizing not only back home but here too.
I’m a huge fan of Erich Fromm. The man survived the Holocaust yet he somehow never lost his faith in humanity. He strongly believed that parents were the key to curing this capitalist bullshit. Authoritarianism starts at home.
Check out his books Escape from Freedom or The Sane Society.
Good thing that has nothing to do with antinatalism then.
Again, if it’s your personal choice to not reproduce, that’s totally fine, and I won’t try to convince you otherwise.
As soon as you start telling other people though that producing offspring is inherently unethical and they’re a bad, selfish person for making that decision, you’re no different than the so-called “pro-life” groups, telling people that they’re morally flawed and the cause of all the problems in the world because you don’t agree with the choice they made about their reproductive system.
The options with antinatalism are:
Option 1 is unacceptable to me because it means giving up, and at that point we might as well nuke everything to speed up the process of ending the suffering that is life. And if that’s the outlook you have, I genuinely feel bad for you.
Option 2 is unacceptable because — surprise surprise — that’s just eugenics dressed up as caring about the environment or something. And when you and your loved ones are part of groups that have historically been forcibly sterilized at best and sent to death camps at worst, you tend to have a negative opinion about any philosophy that ultimately labels some groups as unworthy of existing.
The more extreme form of antinatalism, efilism, actually advocates for sterilizing the earth to prevent animal suffering as well.
You seem extremely confused.
Antinatalism has precisely nothing to do with preventing people from procreating.
Maybe I am, because no one’s given me a better explanation of it than “having kids bad”
Just pulling straight from Wikipedia, “Antinatalism or anti-natalism is the philosophical value judgment that procreation is unethical or unjustifiable” and I can’t see how that doesn’t lead to the conclusion that the planet is better off with humans being extinct.
Every argument I’ve heard boils down to “it’s easier just to die than to fix the problems that make life miserable, so we should all just die.” If you want to give up, go ahead. I personally don’t want to ever have kids, but I still want the world to be better for those who do.
They’re just plain arguing in bad faith. Persuasion, debate, and spreading ideology online are definitely an attempt to control others, just because it’s not physically coercive yet doesn’t make it exempt from any moral examination. They are seeking influence without accountability.
We are humanity, and we have barely begun to get silly. Arrogance is in our blood, ambition is our food and drink, and hubris is the air we breathe. We’ve been lurching from one disaster to the next since the ice age, clinging to this rock by our fingernails every time, and laughing the whole way.
We are not space elves. We are not wise. We do almost nothing but stumble, but we’re laughing the whole way. These antinatalists just don’t get the joke.
Is the funny bit all the suffering?
Option 1 being “unacceptable” to you is scary und giving me the ick. What happens in your world when people don’t want kids anymore? Forced breeding programs?
Sorry, not at all how I meant that. It’s being told not to have children that is scary and gives me the ick.
I don’t want the world to get to a point where no one wants to have kids anymore. I recognize that a lot of things happening now make it really hard to stay optimistic, but we — humanity — are the only ones who can do anything to change it for the better. And given the choice between “we might as well give up and just die out as soon as possible” and “we need to do everything we can to give the next generation the best chance of surviving and thriving we can”, I’ll always choose the latter
It’s going to be a bit difficult to keep ‘surviving and thriving’ without food or water.
But hey, 2030 is a few years off still, so how about an even closer apocalypse? Did you know there’s now a chance for a double blue ocean event in the next ten months?
How do you plan to fix this? You gonna throw babies at it? Or are you just going to do what you’ve been conditioned to and ignore all the disadvantaged people struggling and dying, till the apocalypse is at your door and your children are affected?
Before I became a mom, I could honestly give less of a shit if the world went to shit.
Now that I’m a mom, I will move heaven and earth to give my son a better life. My son is currently living the best life that all his ancestors could have ever dreamed of.
My family moved to one of the safest places in the world for climate change and nuclear war. We’re buying and building a fully off-grid home where my son will be able to grow up running in a forest for his backyard while still living a normal life, going to school, and stuff. We’re planning on starting a strawberry or blueberry farm co-op. I’m literally building the world and community that I want my son to live in brick by brick, person by person.
I hate politics but I’m organizing not only back home but here too.
I’m a huge fan of Erich Fromm. The man survived the Holocaust yet he somehow never lost his faith in humanity. He strongly believed that parents were the key to curing this capitalist bullshit. Authoritarianism starts at home.
Check out his books Escape from Freedom or The Sane Society.
He never had kids.
I have a hard time not reading this as “I’m sufficiently privileged so it’s fine for me to have kids.”
Good for you, I guess…