• Norah (pup/it/she)@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    9 days ago

    The issue with the post is that it is nostalgic of a time that didn’t exist for non-white families. You talk as if white families didn’t directly benefit from the fact non-white families had less, as if it was only rich capitalists sacrificing so lower class families had more in that era. It is a direct causation.

    Nostalgia is a tool of modern white-supremacism, and people should be more aware of that fact.

    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0896920512448941

    Heck, the OOP* is even misogynist here whether they realise it or not. Capitalists realised they could get away with paying workers half as much if women were going to enter the workforce, and families would need two working parents. Recognising and acknowledging that it links back to homemaking labour being treated as without value to society more generally as well.

    • acargitz@lemmy.ca
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      9 days ago

      You talk as if white families didn’t directly benefit from the fact non-white families had less, as if it was only rich capitalists sacrificing so lower class families had more in that era.

      No, I do not, you are misunderstanding or misconstruing what I’m saying. I am saying that the bigger factor was the partial disciplining of capital in the post WW2 era. I am talking about relative importance of multiple factors in achieving an outcome. To put it differently: white supremacy in the post-WW2 era was not more aggressive than in the past, so we cannot reasonably claim that the increase in standards of living for the lower middle class is attributable to white supremacy. White supremacy was in fact even more aggressive in gilded age. If white supremacy explains lower middle class prosperity, the gilded age would have been a better time to be lower middle class than the post-WW2 era. It wasn’t, and it doesn’t.

      Same applies to the misogyny allegation. Women were even more repressed in the previous eras. Did that mean that a typical lower middle class white dude was better off before? No!

      Again, I am being very careful here: I’m not arguing against dismantling off networks of power that intersect with capitalist domination here. I am saying that if you want to talk about economic standards of living, you have to talk about economic policy. Antiracism and antisexism are necessary but they are not sufficient. Without a socialist backbone, we know now empirically that they just get coopted by corporate shills and all you get the kind of “corporate diversity” of the Democrats.

      Nostalgia is a tool of modern white-supremacism, and people should be more aware of that fact.

      I understand the distrust of nostalgia. But I don’t share it in the general sense. Nostalgia is a form of memory and it helps keep movements alive when they have been defeated hoping they can fight another day. The past is of course a space of struggle. Which is precisely why we should refuse to cede it to the far right. The answer to someone being nostalgic for a better quality of life cannot be to attack them for not mentioning that it was not good for everyone. Without nostalgia for their homes, the Palestinians would have long ago given up the dream of freedom. When they lovingly hold on to their house keys, they don’t miss the imperialist, authoritarian, genocidal Ottoman fucking Empire, they miss not being dispossessed, displaced and oppressed by Zionism. Would it not be counter-productive to get in their faces every time they become nostalgic about the past with “yea but while you were cozy in your houses before the foundation of Israel, the Ottoman system you were part of was genociding Armenians and Greeks”?

      Here you have members of the contemporary precariat pining for a time when they didn’t have to work shitty gig jobs. Punching them in the face with the shitty things from the past is entirely counter productive. It in fact strengthens the fascist narrative because it reinforces the lie that in order for a white person to have a good quality of life, white supremacy has to also be in place. It cedes the past to the far right.

      ===================== EDIT, to synthesize a bit:

      Postwar one-income stability was real, but it also wasn’t universal. The engine was political economy: high worker bargaining power (unions), regulation, and a state willing to tax and spend. When those institutions eroded, typical pay stopped tracking productivity. The distribution was racialized and gendered: a huge chunk of “normal” middle-class security was homeownership and cheap credit, and Black veterans and families were systematically blocked from GI Bill and housing pathways in many places.

      So the honest slogan is: bring back the disciplining of capital, this time without segregation and patriarchal dependency.

      • Norah (pup/it/she)@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        9 days ago

        I’m not reading this long of a comment when you’re just trying to justify away racism.

        Nostalgia is a tool of modern white-supremacism, and people should be more aware of that fact.

        *taps the sign*

        Edit: I also NEVER SAID that white supremacy was the reason, as your first comment seemed to posit, so this just all feels like mansplaining. Have a nice day. 🫡

        • Wren@lemmy.today
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          9 days ago

          “I didn’t read all that but it’s definitely racist and mansplaining” is a hell of a take. Imagine a world where book reviews were all based on number of pages and a subjective opinion of the author.

          I thought the comment was good reading. I’m pretty informed and I learned a few things.

          Particularly enjoyed this part:

          …It in fact strengthens the fascist narrative because it reinforces the lie that in order for a white person to have a good quality of life, white supremacy has to also be in place. It cedes the past to the far right.

          As a feminist, please, for the love of fuck, stop using the term “mansplaining” whenever someone disagrees politely in a debate.

          • Norah (pup/it/she)@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            9 days ago

            Oh I’m sorry, I guess I’m not a feminist? I’ll defer to your authority :)

            Maybe just no longer in the mood to be charitable because of all the people in this thread jumping down mine and other’s throats for saying this was only true for white families. Maybe not in the mood for someone splaining to me that nostalgia is good actually and not a well-studied tool of the far right. It’s almost like the fascist in the White House uses "Make America Great Again" as his campaign slogan.

            Maybe I’m just sick of this awful platform and it’s “progressive” but actually very neoliberal conservative userbase.

            • Wren@lemmy.today
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              9 days ago

              How would you know what the platform is like if you don’t read the comments?

            • gnu@lemmy.zip
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              9 days ago

              Maybe I’m just sick of this awful platform

              Nobody’s forcing you to be here if it’s so awful. You can always try going outside instead or finding an echo chamber somewhere where you can safely ignore the reality of not everyone always agreeing with you.

        • acargitz@lemmy.ca
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          9 days ago

          I’m not reading this long of a comment when you’re just trying to justify away racism.

          Oh OK, the comment is long so just accuse me of trying to justify away racism instead. And of mansplaining. Super reasonable.

          By the way, the TLDR version of my too-long comment is in the EDIT above. Tweet sized: «The engine was political economy, the distribution was racialized and gendered. Let’s do the former without the latter.»

          • Norah (pup/it/she)@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            9 days ago

            ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

            Part of mansplaining is inventing a position to argue against so you can 'splain to someone like you know better than them. All I said was that it was only true for white families. Which you’ve admitted was the case. So what else are you doing here trying to explain away what was still a fact due to racism?? Sure, it wasn’t necessarily the driving force, but it was a fact, and it’s weird to be nostalgic for a time that actually sucked for a broad segment of the population. White families had it better than black families, and capitalists wouldn’t have given up all that they did if those benefits had to actually be for everyone.

            • acargitz@lemmy.ca
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              9 days ago

              Not sure how to respond without a long comment, but here goes. Basic idea: we agree on the facts. We disagree on their interpretation and on the usefulness of nostalgia.