personally I bounce between FF and Brave. Neither are ideal, FF for the reasons cited here and Brave because it stinks of crypto bro. I personally want FF to survive, it’s the only non-chromium browser with any significant market share. I’m looking forward to Ladybird though.
LadyBird & Servo cannot come fast enough.
such is life. no one stays good forever. Enshittification is inevitable… alas…
Took me too long to realize the paws applying the makeup don’t belong to the fox
Unpopular opinion: the Firefox hate is completely out of proportion.
Whether we like it or not, a lot of users are interacting with the internet through AI agents. Every browser larger than Firefox already has AI agents locked into the browser. Firefox is providing an option for people who would like to use it, and that’s it. They’re providing it in a better and safer context, in which users can define the scope of access that the AI has, which AI agent they want to use, or even use a local AI model.
A lot of people here will start simping for the Google-backed Chromium browsers, or for crypto mining browsers, or for browsers that are essentially reskinned Firefox.
I’ve used the beta version that’s out now. There’s a little pop-up when it updates that says, hey, would you like to set up your choice of AI agent? If you don’t want one, you just click no thanks and skip it and everything else still works the same.
Maybe I’m the one with the clown makeup in the last panel, but I just don’t see what the big deal is for everybody.
I like your take. An optimistic me would be fully onboard with it. But this isn’t a single change in a vacuum. I think the reason people aren hating is because they’re seeing it as yet another symptom of enshitification, and I don’t disagree.
There are rare examples of outstanding companies like Steam that talk the talk and walk the walk. But with Firefox, they’re headed the wrong direction. They cut 30% of their staff this time last year, cut their internet freedom advacacy group, and I think that was the point where they started a hard shift away from who they were. They’re harvesting and selling user data now (removed the old “Nope. Never have, never will” [sell user data] from their FAQ), they’ve got a CEO that’s taking an absolute fortune off the top of a struggling company, and they’re steadily removing long time features like pocket integration and compact mode.
The last straw will be if Google ever pulls their deal as Firefox’s default search engine… Mozilla will very likely pivot hard to nasty, modern money making practices to keep themselves alive if they lose 80% of their revenue all at once like that.
So while I generally agree with everything you have to say here, there are only two things I want to add.
Firstly, and potentially my more salient point, a lot of end users doing something is nearly never a reason to do something, if that thing itself is bad.
Bringing to my second point, AI is being done in the worst, and nearly most unethical, way. Participating in that front is only encouraging this behavior amongst heinous tech leaders to continue this farcical push to oblivion.
And while this isn’t a point of contention worth discussing, since it’s entirely my already decided opinion that I have no interest in reconsidering, but AI injection is a step further into enshittification of the last true competitor to google. It erodes mindshare and trust among the loyal and evangelizers. I know personally I’m now a little conflicted on recommending FF. On the one hand, it’s still the best recommendation, but we’ve also watched this type of decline many times before and it generally spells the end when a product goes the direction of trendy fads and enshittifying for short term gains at the expense of long term gains and user trust.
Yes, yes you are the last panel
The backlash is over the CEO’s comments of “evolving into an AI browser” instead of the current implementation
Isn’t this already covered with extensions, though?
No no, you are not the clown and absolutely right. This fad will end soon as all the others.
Just like that pesky “internet” thing people are always talking about.
Privacy
Ok, but hear me out. The clown fox is adorable.
it should be the new logo
of a joke fork that’s actually better than the original.
Just run with ClownFox, or maybe PeanutFox, or just whole ass into CircusClown.
So if Mozilla is turning into mozzarella, what’s the best next alternative?
I like Librewolf on my PC. It shuts down a bunch of stuff right off he bat.
I’m looking for some recommendations for android devices.
Go with ironfox on android. Can’t recommend fennec they skip updates
Can second LibreWolf, though you have to be aware that it tweaks quite a few things in the name of privacy that you may want to turn back on.
For example, I was unable to use my FoundryVTT webapp until I re-enabled WebGL in the settings. Which reminds me, I need to see if that feature can be whitelisted per-domain or if it’s all-or-nothing…
So, for those, I keep another, less private browser around. Like chromium or Water Fox.
Man, missed opportunity there on WaterFox. Could’ve been WaterBear lol
edit: tardigrade joke, though I imagine most will catch that.
Ha yeah. it plays hell with AboveVTT too. Tookvme a while to work out it was that.
i use ironfox, it works for me, haven’t tried anything else.
At this point I use tor for most things, with ironfox as a quick fallback.
Libreworlf(PC) /waterfox & fennec (phone) right now. Have my eye on ladybird for the future
Be careful fennec skips updates
right now i think the best android browser is ironfox
fennec is the best ff fork on android imho and pretty much exactly like librewolf with it’s defaults, it’s on fdroid. i also see ironfox recommended but i haven’t tried it personally. it’s prolly good, too.
What is with the antifeatures listed for it on f-droid? “This app tracks and reports your activity” “connects to various Mozilla services that can track users”.
didn’t realize that. it apparently leaves some mozilla telemetry enabled that you can disable by going to about:config and searching ‘telemetry’ to quickly find all options and set to false. this makes me want to check out ironfox now.
Over biggest problem with fennec is that they skip regular Firefox updates
Are they skipping minor bug/tweak/feature stuff or security patching?
Ironfox is excellent
Duckduckgo for Android works for me.
Booo, now they got an AI image generator.
Yeah, the more ai by default DDG puts in, the more I look elsewhere. AI assists wouldn’t bother me nearly as much if it was all opt-out by default and a toggle to opt in.
I unironically use https://servo.org/ from time to time for light surfing like researching something on wikipedia.
It breaks on most modern websites especially SPAs of course its like super alpha but its heading in the right direction its great to have a alternative showing up in times like this.
Still have Firefox with all AI disabled for heavy usage and stuff like banking.
I might use that for an app.
I want a spreadsheet app that uses SQLite and runs with GUI on both macOS and Linux.
This feels like it would get the job done. I don’t want to use electron for the obvious reasons.
Tauri has servo support in development. https://servo.org/blog/2024/01/19/embedding-update/ i would assume support has gotten only better since this post was created.
Sounds very useful, BTW.
Yeah, I love spreadsheets, I love databases.
I hate Excel. Numbers is the only spreadsheet software with a good presentation layer, but it has awful functionality. I don’t want a db table viewer/editor, I want a spreadsheet.
Why not have a non-proprietary open format (SQLite) back my spreadsheets. You could port it to any front end you want, and the format will never go away.
There are a few browsers/browser engines in the works, but right now you could try a Firefox fork
Just started with waterfox today, seems pretty good so far
I would be wary. iirc, water fox was owned by an ad agency for a few years
And now it’s not. The original developer bought it back a couple of years ago.
The bigger issue is that, like with all of the Firefox forks, it’s still using the Firefox code base and security updates, which is what’s about to go absolutely sideways. Removing the AI translator is one thing, but it sounds like they’re planning on totally fucking it all up at its core.
With no usable Firefox to use as a base, all of the forks are set to die on the vine.
Good to know about the change in ownership. I wonder if that’s why they were so radio silent on updates for so long. During that time, I flipped to Floorp, which I’ve been pretty happy with.
… Servo appears to be missing a huge opportunity by not having an ansgty gumball machine mascot.
Uh, in lieu of a mascot that I do not think they officially have:
(Author unknown, someone on Pinterest somewhere?)
Beyond a functionality/usability focus, check out that built in Oblivious DNS, DoH solution.
Firefox forks seem decent. Besides the aforementioned Waterfox, Fennec so far seems good too, people seem to like LibreWolf, and likely I’m forgetting some other fork.
Fennec has been working well for me on Android, I I’ve been using Waterfox on Bazzite via flatpak for almost a year, good stuff, and I think the other fork you’re forgetting is maybe… IronFox?
Possibly. Also about Waterfox, they also have a portable version for Linux, which for me is pretty important.
Can someone cue (or is it queue? que?) me in on what all the fuzz is this time around? I feel like I hear a pitchfork mob at least once a year without actually noticing anything different.
Just for the record: I’m not claiming that there’s much ado about nothing, merely that I am severely out of the loop as usual.
Firefox is the biggest non-chromium browser competitor, and was an advocate of privacy and not selling user data
But they recently did a 180, started selling user data, and are now shoving FF full of AI bloatware nobody wants
So the userbase is feeling very betrayed
Wait, selling user data? What did I miss?
Their argument is “we’re not selling your data, we’re selling our data about you.”
https://blog.mozilla.org/en/firefox/update-on-terms-of-use/
TL;DR Mozilla doesn’t sell data about you (in the way that most people think about “selling data”), and we don’t buy data about you. We changed our language because some jurisdictions define “sell” more broadly than most people would usually understand that word. Firefox has built-in privacy and security features, plus options that let you fine-tune your data settings.
Removing “no we will never sell your data” from your Q/A page is not a good look
AFAIK an exaggeration. They are promoting “privacy respecting ad metrics”.
They are selling user data for profit. It’s anonymized sure, but it’s still selling user data
Nothing in that post proofs that they sell any user data?
Oh. So they are. Thanks.
The new CEO has said he wants to turn Firefox into a “modern day AI browser”
He also said he doesn’t want to but they could make $150m/year by blocking ad blockers.
I get that he said he doesn’t want to, but that really should have been a non starter train of thought.
it’s “clue” me in on. But “cue” does make sense, from an “eggcorn” perspective. It’s not the phrase, but it makes sense.
It’s also “fuss” not “fuzz” but like no biggie, most people can pick up meanings from context clues.
“Clue me in” is the idiom.
QueCue is closer than queue, if you were an actor and needed a hint on where to go next.A cue is a marker point, usually for media production. It can be used in several contexts.
Queue would be a line, more or less.
I’m being reductive, of course. Just trying to help people who are too lazy to Google or look at a dictionary.
Queue is also the playing stick used in billiards Edit: Queue
In French, yes. In English, it’s a pool cue.
It probably originates from French
They should probably speak French if they’re going to use the French term.
These would be great with added text
My candidates are:
- We can survive without Google’s money
- People want Pocket by default. So what if shares your data and fills your homepage with ads.
- We want expand Firefox into a suite and make it AI first
- We’re giving up $150m/year by not blocking ad blockers
What alternatives exist that aren’t so locked down 90% of sites don’t load?
Is it only ff forks and chromium forks? All dependant on two terrible companies?
LibreWolf or WaterFox
Wasn’t servo the engine that was originally started by Mozilla to replace gecko but then dropped?
Yes. It was revived recently (two years ago??) by Linux foundation Europe because there is some renewed interest in!it.
If you stay with Firefox forks use LibreWolf, if you stay with Chrome forks go Vivaldi do not use Brave, Sucks that Safari folded so many years ago for at least Windows it was a way to use Konqueror.
What do folks think about Helium as a Chromium option?
At least there is a project that tries to be the 3rd option, but no idea how useful this will be: https://ladybird.org/
Opera with Presto was already not 100% compatible with websites back then and that was the last alternative Option I remember (and not open source).
Right. Nowadays we only have ff and chromium forks, some really tiny browsers that only render HTML/XHTML 4, and two huge unoptimized & unfinished pieces of software that render ok for some sites and really really wrong on others.
From what I’ve been noticing, they’re going downhill since they started being supported by their competitor and monopoly. Could they be suffering from sabotage, I wonder…
Hasn’t google pretty much always supported Mozilla/firefox? I was pretty sure this was the case since basically forever.
Now I’m not sure so will have to check. But even if so, they still kept gradually advancing in their support for Mozilla.
/u/Nora is right. There was a short period when Yahoo! made a better offer to be the default search engine a long time ago, but Google was already there and came back to Firefox swiftly.
Started going downhill when they kicked out Brendan Eich for being a creep. The creep’s a competent engineer tho.
You’ve got it backwards. It’s the threat of anti-trust against Google’s ownership of Chrome that puts Firefox at risk. Google has pretty much always supported / paid Firefox either to have Google as the default search or more direct support to stave off the anti-trust claims.
However, if Google has to sell / spin-off chrome, there is no longer as big of a reason to fund Mozilla and that’s why you’re seeing Moz scramble to find new ways to find funding. This AI push is no doubt a desperate attempt to lure in investor dollars as they’re reading the room and see that their current funds will likely disappear in the coming years
Edit: spelling
You take out the c-suite and other top executives and the demand for funds in Mozilla diminishes dramatically.
If by dramatically you mean by <1% then sure. Their problems are much larger than executive compensation
In 2018, Baker received $2,458,350 in compensation from Mozilla.[16] In 2020, after returning to the position of CEO, Baker’s salary was more than $3 million. In 2021, her salary rose again to more than $5.5 million,[17] and again to over $6.9 million in 2022.[18
That’s just one of the C-dipshits.
According to Mozilla, roughly 2/5 (that’s 40%) of its expenses were to pay leadership.
And what do we get from this highly paid leadership workforce? Gross mismanagement, failure to capitalize on services, services that are cancelled prematurely eroding customer confidence, terrible marketing…
But I’d love to see how you arrived at less than a percent.
Nowhere in this financial statement does it state leadership / executive compensation just that overall payroll expenses for 2023 were $328 million - I fear you’re misreading the financial statement
I fear you can’t read tables.
I fear you have no idea how to read a financial statement
Total expenses for 2023 were $496 million (plus income tax puts it at $511 million). Total salary expenses were $328 million, approximately 66% of all expenses. On the financial statement, there is absolutely no mention of executive compensation so no clue where you’re pulling this line that executive compensation made up 40% of all expenses.
Finally a useful comment! Thanks!
Sabotage? Most probably. Along with idiocy and greed.
Trading 1 clueless buzzword businessman for another.
Should I be worried about Thunderbird too?
No and neither should you be worried about FX. Lemmy is absolutely amazing at spreading FUD regarding anything Mozilla does. So far they have added AI very cautiously and respecting our privacy.
I don’t think so. These AI stunts are all coming from a small group of Silicon Valley investors. They only want to focus on software that’s widely used, so web browsers are a natural target. Mail clients aren’t that popular anymore, so I doubt they’ll advocate for fucking them up.
foxkeh did nothing wrong :(
This hurts, too soon (awesome work).
