There is no group activity that you think you would find enjoyment in?

If so, why do you want friends? If you had friends, what would you want to do with them if you hate all group activities?

God I wish, lol. Pretty sure he’s long since retired.

This headline just inspired me to channel his spirit, lol.

Yeah, I’m not surprised. I’d imagine an experience like being kidnapped would really change someone. Glad the little fella’s made it back to his family.

-Ken M

I’m unconvinced that Israel would completely collapse without support.

And to be clear, the scenario I’m talking about is one where the world steps in and forces Israel to respect Palestinian sovereignty first.

If Russia were to back out of Ukraine and relinquish all captured land to them, and the world was actively keeping them in check, but Ukraine started firing missiles at Moscow anyway, yes, I would say they are wrong to do so.

Removed by mod

I do feel like the H1-B visa system is completely broken though. You’re telling me you “can’t find” a cloud engineer in the US, so you just have to import one from India or wherever? It’s all just fraud to let companies undercut the American labor market.

Interesting. Makes sense.
I’m sure some re-enter from, like, coinstar machines or something, but that’s gotta be a tiny minority.

But that seems like another point in favor of discontinuing them. If people who get them literally never use them, seems like a pointless coin, lol.

But it seems like they’ll probably self eliminate one way or the other over time. I guess the concern would be that they’d self eliminate too quickly, as no one who gets them ever spends them, so basically every distributed penny just instantly vanishes.

But I think the problems with cutting over will largely just be minor heartache. Like, it’ll be minorly bumpy for a month or two, but by a year out everyone will have figured it out and no one will miss them.

Yeah, like, the government has longstanding rules for how to handle in circulation currency, to include removing old and battered bills and coins from circulation over time. I kinda just assume the plan is to do exactly what you would normally do without making any new ones.

People overstate that problem. They say “businesses” as if all businesses are the same.

Bank of America has 3600 branches in the US. At $20/day, that’s $72k/day, or $26mil a year.

Bank of America has $3.5 trillion dollars in assets. If they’re making 1% interest on that (they’re making far more than that, I promise), they’re making $35 billion dollars a year. So that $26mil makes up less than a tenth of a percent of their total revenue.

Compare that to the Walmart example. First, at Walmart people aren’t just buying one thing. If my cart has 50 items in it, that’s a few cents per item. So we’re really talking fifty cents to a dollar per transaction. Second, Walmart has around 40 million customers per day. (About half of the total number of people who even have a Bank of America account, and we know that not even half of account holders are going to a brick and mortar every day.)

So, a savings of 1¢ per item is a difference of, conservatively (assuming an average cart size of 10 items), $4mil per day, or around $1.5 billion per year. Contrast with the around $26 million from Bank of America.

They just aren’t comparable examples. At its core, the scale issue that you’re outlining only matters if you’re getting it on a huge number of relevant things it applies to. There just aren’t that many actual cash transactions handled by BoA compared to its overall income numbers. Walmart has a huge number of individual items it sells vs it’s overall income.

Fair. We’ll have to see how it plays out. My gut is that the demand probably won’t be there, but we’ll just have to see.

But to be clear, we’re talking about a brick and mortar bank losing between $10-40 a day. Compared to the overall quantity of money moving through it, that feels like it should be negligible. That’s, like, one to two tellers leaving an hour early.

But yeah, the way this should be done is through an act of Congress. Agreed on that. This should really be an easy piece of bipartisan legislation, and the fact that Congress is so broken as to be unable to pass it is a huge indictment in its own right.

I hear what you’re saying, but I don’t know that I foresee this as more than a niche issue.

Obviously this is just a gut feeling backed by no data, so it’s worth the paper it’s printed on. But how many pennies were banks giving to non-business customers? I have to believe that it was super negligible.

The vast majority of pennies were issued to businesses to make change. If businesses stop giving out pennies, how many pennies will the banks be asked to hand out?

Time will tell for sure, but my gut is that the amount of people hoarding pennies will be wildly offset by businesses getting rid of them.

And, in your “what if I asked for only 4¢ from the bank” example. The easy solution is that they just give you a nickel and write the penny off as a loss. The penny is just so low value that it wouldn’t add up to an appreciable loss. Again, that’s gut, but the average bank brick-and-mortar does on the order of hundreds or thousands of transactions per day. If they lost 4¢/transaction, that’s only on the order of tens of dollars per day. They lose more to that in miscounts I would imagine.

A fair point. A better, more modern example is probably the two dollar bill. They’ll just slowly be pulled out of circulation until they’re no longer common.

I’m sure businesses will continue to accept pennies. They’ll just start rounding to 5¢ regardless because they’re uncommon, and if someone brings in 5 pennies, they’ll take them, but eventually the federal reserve will have sucked all but a handful out of circulation.

Probably the same way they handled the halfpenny being removed from circulation. There was no government fiat about it then.

But, luckily, they’ve got 20yrs minimum to figure it out. They’ve just stopped making new pennies. Coins are intended to last 20-30 years. It’s not like they’re going out and stealing everyone’s pennies today.

I doubt it’s a terribly difficult problem for them to solve over the next two to three decades.

I mean, yes, it’s the most extreme version of your position highlighting how ridiculous it is. The hope was that it would highlight to you how silly your reasoning was. If your ideology is predicated on doing the opposite of someone you hate, it requires you to take absolutely nonsensical positions.

But engaging with that requires self reflection, and that’s hard.

But I’m game to call it here as well, if you like. Thanks for the debate. I’ve had fun. :)

Since you brought Hitler into this… Clearly it’s never okay with Hitler. Terribly evil person. If you agree with Hitler on literally anything, you are complicit in the Holocaust.

Hitler loved dogs. Huge fan of them. He had three (well, one and Eva Braun had two). He let his dog sleep in the bed with him. Took it with him everywhere. He was a huge dog lover. Big fan.

Am I required to hate dogs because, by saying dogs are good, I’m agreeing with Hitler? It’s clearly a terribly evil thing to agree with Hitler, right? So I think the only possible moral stance is to hate dogs with every fiber of your being? Isn’t that right?

That’s what your position feels like.

And I think we’ve reached the impasse.

I agree with you that this administration is evil. We have the same opinion of them. We’re on the same side in that regard. And I’m not even saying you’re wrong to despise them. I agree that’s normal and even right.

But when you decide to begin rejecting reality. When you start calling bad things good and good things bad. When you start ignoring the evidence of your own eyes and justifying conspiracy theories because your hatred is more important than the truth. That’s when you lose me. And based on this thread, it seems like that’s where you’re losing most people. And hurting your own cause.

Brother, apples already cost over 60x what they did when the halfpenny was done away with. I think we’re at the point where the discussion is warranted.

But really, there’s a bigger problem here, and it’s that you’ve let your hatred of the current administration blind you. You sound like the person who’s saying that the only reason that the Democrats would do something good is because they’re secretly using it as a front to harvest adrenochrome.

As hard as this may be for you to hear, there are still in fact bipartisan issues in this country that everyone, regardless of party, agrees with. Fewer every year for sure, in this increasingly tribalistic landscape, but they do in fact still exist, and this is one of them.

There’s a list of things that we’ve had bipartisan support for under the Trump administration. Legislation to fight phone scammers. Legislation to lower drug prices. The First Step Act, that helped a lot of non-violent federal prisoners get released from prison and reintegrated into their communities. His work to push against TikTok and other Chinese state controlled information networks in the US.

These are all things that Democrats also support and are pushing for. These are all things that have been good that this administration has done.

Now, all that is wildly, and don’t mis-hear this, WILDLY, overshadowed by the blatant evil, hate, cruelty, and corruption of this administration.

But if you’re so caught up in the “everything the person on the other team does automatically has to be bad because they’re wearing a red shirt instead of a blue shirt,” mindset, you stop being a voice to consider seriously. You will throw all logic and reason to the wind because it’s an attack against your identity to acknowledge that the other side can sometimes agree with you. It makes it where you have to imagine some sort of outlandish, deep state conspiracy to explain why the opposition is on your side about something, because you refuse to accept the obvious. Sometimes there are just issues that aren’t terribly political and almost all semi-reasonable people just kind of agree on it.

You said that you’re not against it because you hate MAGA. And maybe you’re right. Maybe I’ve misread you. But it’s clearly not true that we “all know it,” as most people in this thread seem to disagree with you. And if you aren’t automatically against everything from this administration just because of who they are, then you should be able to produce an example of something they’ve done that you support? I’ve given a list above, so feel free to pick from there. But are you willing to agree that the broken clock can indeed be right twice a day, or is the idea of saying that this administration did a single good thing too much of a threat to your identity?

Sure, but does there need to be top down guidance? It seems fairly obvious on its face that you would just round to the nearest 5¢. Or floor/ceil any overage to the nearest 5¢. Those are really the only options, and I’m fine to leave it to businesses to handle which way they want to go on that.

It’s not like the prices a business charges are set in stone by God. They can charge whatever they want. If milk is $1, and bread is $2, but they want everyone who buys milk and bread at the same time to pay $4, they can do that. It’d be a weird and unwise decision, but it’s certainly allowed. So in the same way if they want to charge you $1.50 even though your “actual total” came out to $1.48, that’s absolutely their prerogative, even without the penny going away.

It’ll probably require some changes to PoS systems, and getting that rolled out might be the harder part, to your point. But the PoS guys have until all the pennies exit circulation to figure it out, so that’ll be the better part of half a decade at minimum.

You have to remember, they’re not going out and stealing all the pennies. They’re just not making more. Businesses have a lot of time to prepare for this. This isn’t an overnight process.

The problem with your meter analogy is that the length that a meter is measuring isn’t slowly shrinking. If, in 50 years, instead of my room being 5 meters across it was instead 50,000 meters across, then yeah, I’d probably recommend we start measuring rooms in kilometers. And whereas I would care if you told me my 5mx5m room was actually 4.5mx4.5m, I probably don’t care that my 49999.5mx49999.5m room is missing that exact same half meter.

And think of it this way. If Walmart (or any other store) were to, instead of “stealing your extra pennies by rounding up to the nearest 5¢,” simply raise the price of all your groceries by 2ish¢, would that change your buying habits? Would you suddenly refuse to buy your groceries or go drive to another store because they raised the cost by 2¢? Probably not. So, if that extra 2¢ was super meaningful to the bottom line, they could already steal it from you. They don’t need the pretense of rounding.

This has been proposed for a long time, and it’s been luck of the draw which administration chose to do it. You’re letting your hatred of Trump make you jump through irrational hoops to try and justify why this has to be a bad thing, because they idea that it could possibly be good, even by purest luck, is a threat to your identity as a person.

Or maybe not. Maybe I’m just armchair phycologist-ing. But your stance isn’t a reasonable one. If in the future an apple costs $5000 and we’re still printing the penny, there’s no logical framework for keeping the penny. It would take 500,000 pennies to buy an apple. You’d have to bring in a pallet of pennies to buy it. If you think we should keep printing the penny at that point, then I don’t think we’ll ever see eye to eye.

But if you do agree that once apples are $5000 a piece we can stop printing the penny because it has no use, then we’re just arguing about where/when the line is to get rid of the penny, not that the line exists at all. And if that line exists, I think it’s fairly obvious on its face that we’re overdue.

But we used to figure everything to the half cent. That’s my point. We stopped figuring it to the half cent when we got rid of the half cent coin.

In the same way, we would stop figuring things to the whole cent if we got rid of the penny.

As an example, let’s say I wanted to buy an item that was $1.75, but it was 50% off. How much does that cost? In reality, it should be $0.875, but we don’t track to the half penny, so we just call it 88¢.

Or, if you buy something for $1.50, but there’s a sales tax of 3%, that item will be $1.545 after sales tax, but they just round it to $1.55.

They’re already rounding your numbers up. That’s already happening. The only reason it feels different is because we “don’t track fractional pennies,” which is only true because we got rid of the coins that allowed us to track fractional pennies.

If we got rid of the coins that let us track individual pennies, we would also stop tracking all exchanges to the individual penny, and simply round to the nearest 5¢.

Which, in many cases, could actually work in your favor, I might add. If you bought something and the total was 1.52, they would simply round it down to $1.50. Sales tax law varies state to state, but that it’s how the vast majority of states handle fractional pennies already, so precident indicates it would be that way for rounding to the nearest 5¢. E.g. if sales tax is 2%, and you bought something for $1.19, that comes out to $1.2138, but most states round that to $1.21, saving you 0.38¢ (38 one hundredths of a cent).